An Update on the Foss Hotel (15. April 2008, 10:57 by Whitney) ~ Where's the Sand?
The Biz Buzz is reporting a new chapter in the Foss Waterway Hotel story. Supposedly, the developer is now returning to original plans of a large hotel with only a few condos. The City decided this wasn’t a big enough change to require them to redo the shoreline plan, but they may file for another extension anyway. Hmmm…..
Link to the Biz Buzz
Previously on Exit133
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705 is Tacoma’s Alaska Way Viaduct. I dont know how we’re ever going to truly connect Dock Street to downtown unless we remove 705. I think this is THE major impediment to a robust and active Dockstreet and Foss waterway. Think how much more lively and awake downtown would be if all the traffic zooming by on 705 had to filter through downtown. You’re driving home, you have to pass through downtown and you notice a new restaurant or retail shop. Maybe you stop off to meet friends for happy hour somewhere. Downtown is no longer a metal and concrete facade you drive by at 50mph, but a neighborhood you drive through and feel connected to. Lets get rid of I-705, connect Dockstreet to downtown, and expand The Link.
1 | Posted by CA | Apr 15, 01:05 PM
I don’t think it’s I-705 so much as it’s the railroad tracks and the hill.
But they do need to add another “pedestrian friendly” connection to the Foss in addition to the glass bridge.
2 | Posted by Gorman | Apr 15, 01:52 PM
Well, there’s always Dan Voelpel’s pet idea of building a tramway …
I believe this hotel, if ever built, is planned for the space between the two condos already on the Foss (one of which is nearing completion). And Tacoma needs more hotel rooms. So … this seems like a positive development to me. I only hope the building doesn’t get too tall as I’m concerned about lost waterway views from the city.
I-705 is the bigger problem both visually and physically. No matter how many pedestrian friendly connectors you have to Dockstreet, that freeway is still a huge ugly wall that isolates Dockstreet and makes it feel like not a part of downtown. Also I-705 diverts thousands of people around downtown as they drive to North Tacoma, as if they’re trying to avoid a nuclear dump site. I-705 drains life from downtown, and walls off Dockstreet.
4 | Posted by CA | Apr 15, 02:09 PM
I think its lazy to blame 705 for the distance between downtown and the Foss waterway. Until recently, no one was even interested in going down there. All of a sudden its a hot property and every one screams that there’s no public access.
As for the idea of knocking down 705 to force traffic through downtown…I don’t think that would work out quite like you had hoped. Why would a commuter take Pacific, with lights every block, when it is a lot faster to jump up to Yakima, especially with the new bridge in place, and zip up 21st right into the North end. Hiway 16 to Union Ave would be faster too. Either way, drivers still bypass downtown. The vision of cars meandering through downtown isn’t realistic.
I agree that adding a footbridge other than the glass bridge would be a good idea, not sure exactly where. What about the access situation from the link stop once the new bridge over D street is finished?
I think that the big impediment to a robust and active waterfront is a lack of things to do down there. Maybe we should lobby the owners of the Thea’s Landing building and any new buildings down there to charge less for commercial space rental until the area picks up. Businesses worth visiting would be a draw.
“I think its lazy to blame 705 for the distance between downtown and the Foss waterway. Until recently, no one was even interested in going down there. All of a sudden its a hot property and every one screams that there’s no public access.”
Nobody went down there because 1)There was no reason to. 2)There wasnt a quick and easy way to get down there. There wasnt a bridge of glass spanning 705 that connected UWT/Museum district with the Foss.
“The vision of cars meandering through downtown isn’t realistic.”
I think one of the reasons(not the only one) why 6th Ave is so successful is that there is a constant stream of traffic passing through. People on their way home, to the store, out to eat, etc. They drive by and see new businesses, and are more likely to stop off.
“Hiway 16 to Union Ave would be faster too. Either way, drivers still bypass downtown.”
I’m not suggesting that everyone who uses 705 would then drive through downtown-proper. But if 705 did not exist, and was replaced with more developable land, I believe overall traffic downtown would increase.
We dont need 705. Seattle proved this when the Alaska Way viaduct was shut down for inspections, and the city did not grind to a halt.
7 | Posted by CA | Apr 15, 03:08 PM
I live in the Stadium District and work in the port.
With Murray Morgan being closed indefinitely, 705 is my lifeline.
While driving down Pacific is fine and all, it doesn’t cut the mustard for those who need to be at work @ 6:30 but frequently don’t get up until 6. Besides, 705 makes quick work of getting to I-5 and SR 16… much easier than driving up to Sprague and missing all the lights.
My advice, take it for what it’s worth.
1) Add 2 new exits from 705: one to Dock Street and one to 9th (it makes sense to get off where you can get on).
2) Repair Murray Morgan (that gets people like me off of 705). Know that old ramp on the bridge that zig-zags down to Dock Street? Open it up to pedestrians.
3) Throw in some public shoreline access, some mixed use and retail that appeals to more than just the hipsters. That will help attract more people.
4) Better access to downtown. Footbridges are good, streetcar(s) would be better. Currently, 15th snakes down there, but looking from Pac Ave, you’d never know it. I say make it far more obvious and friendly. Adding access from like 13th or maybe that 705 off-ramp I mentioned could be right over where you turn from 509 onto 705 North.
5) Blight. I know the old docks and warehouses north of the bridge are historic and all, but they look awful. If they are to stay, we gotta do something to make that area more appealing. The way Dock street is now, the outlet to Schuster is being seriously under-used, and ignored for it’s potential… no one wants to drive down that part, much less walk it.
Thing is, since 705 is an interstate, it’s therefore the ward of the feds. I don’t see it going any time soon. I say work with it and around it to the best of our ability.
9 | Posted by Thorax O'Tool | Apr 15, 10:05 PM
Maybe some of you that are lamenting I-705 didn’t live here before it opened. First, there was no reason to go anywhere near dock street unless you were looking for a hooker or drugs. Second, I-705 connected the North end to I-5 and took a lot of traffic off of SR-16, which, at the time was backed up to the mall with people traveling the bridge. I-705 is here to stay. I agree with Mr. O’Tool on that point. Deal with it.
I’m confused as to why we “need” more hotel space. There are lots of empty rooms now. As for the condo’s. Just wait another 5-8 years when all those people that spent $500,000 for an apartment realize that the resale value is crap. The reason that they’re such a commodity now is that housing costs are way up. They’re going down, though. Watch what happens when people find that they can actually own a piece of land for less than a view.
10 | Posted by J. Cote | Apr 15, 11:21 PM
705 is Tacoma’s Alaska Way Viaduct. I dont know how we’re ever going to truly connect Dock Street to downtown unless we remove 705.
The city could have been built terraced from downtown to the waterfront. Now basically too late. The cliff, 705 and the RR tracks all separate downtown from Dock Street. Yet, we have to do the best we can. I think an large open walkway down to the water could work.
Do you think that some of the problem with downtown and Dock street is the lack of people actually living down there? 6th Ave does have the street traffic, but it is also very walkable from a thousand front doors.
Relatively little is happening down because of a lack of people working and living there compared to other cities.
Downtown Tacoma is still relatively depopulated with a laundry list of vacant lots and empty buildings. Businesses can only survive in some ratio to the people who live, work, and visit downtown.
When the interstate highway system was first proposed, the major highways mostly bybassed cities. It was only with the cities’ clamoring that they pass right through city centers did the highway builder relent. The intent of the cities was to make it easier for people (read: suburbanites) to get INTO the cities. Unfortunately, the highways have had the opposite effect: they made it much easier for people to get OUT of the cities, hastening suburbanization.
Loop and spur roads like I-705 were quickly found to have the same effect. Of course, Tacoma paid no attention to these hard facts. Despite solid proof that building a road like I-705 would be more of a detriment to downtown than an asset, the city pushed ahead with DOT and lobbied hard enough that it was finally built in the 1980s. The photo in the News Tribune shows the elected leaders celebrating the “new savior of downtown” at the groundbreaking ceremony.
Now, of course, many people outside the architecture and planning professions realize that urban freeways can be more harmful than previously thought. The cities of Portland, Milwaukee, Boston, and San Fransisco have removed their freeways and replaced them with much more attractive, cohesive and quieter neighborhoods.
However, the real point is that a hotel will bring more people to the waterfront who are willing to spend money. The current hotel situation downtown is not enough for the “museum tourists” that frequent our city. The addition of a hotel on the Foss could help struggling small businesses down there now. Something is desperately needed to fill the void between Thea’s Landing and the Esplanade. It’s a psychological gap as well as a physical one: a first-time visitor feels like the waterfront is incomplete.
With more people on the waterfront, more people will follow. As other condo developments come on line, such as Foss Landing to the north, people will have more of a reason to visit the waterfront. As demand increases, we will have to find more creative solutions to getting people there from downtown. Seattle has done it with elevators, walkways, covered train tunnels, and a world-famous sculpture park. If Seattle can do it, so can Tacoma.
Add in a funicular (or two) and charge some nominal fee, like a dollar. Not a $1.50 where people have to deal with coins.
Terrace and garden the hillside as much as possible and include footpaths/bike lanes.
In response to #10 – Not everyone wants to “actually own a piece of land”. I don’t have the desire or time to deal with it or gardeners. Most people moving into a condo or flat choose that option over a house not because of the perceived cost savings.
13 | Posted by I'm for Change (for tacoma) | Apr 16, 07:57 AM
How can we expect to fix the barrier to the Foss created by 705 if we can’t even unfence the regular entrance to the Bridge of Glass?
14 | Posted by michael g. | Apr 16, 09:46 AM
In all honesty, I really dont believe we’re getting rid of 705 anytime soon. It is just frustrating to see such a great chunk of land taken up by a concrete runway. If 705 wasnt there, Dockstreet and the land 705 sits on could be easily and seamlessly integrated into downtown-proper, and Tacoma would truly be a waterfront town.
15 | Posted by CA | Apr 16, 10:10 AM
Freeways can be removed. One of the reasons Portland is celebrated is because of their huge waterfront. The waterfront park exists because they tore down a freeway. Its not impossible, but I agree, removing 705 and shifting traffic to Pacific isn’t an answer.
Just as important to improving waterfront access in Tacoma in general is improving pedestrian/bike connection from downtown to Old Town. The current sidewalk along Schuster Parkway is awful for running, biking, or walking. This could be done by reconfiguring the Parkway — traffic could probably handle it being reduced to one lane each way in some places, which could create room for a nice bike/pedestrian path near the water.
17 | Posted by michael g. | Apr 16, 10:40 AM
And lets not forget I-705 is one of the nicest, scenic interstates (atleast urban) in all the state. Nice landscaping, art above it, downtown and water views, a semi-tunnel thing, a park built above it.
IMO one of the problems Dock Street will always have is the side with the RR tracks. It is ugly. Most bustling streets have activity on both sides of the street and that will probably never happen on Dock Street. The city should at least try and get some grass and trees planted to make it a bit more friendly.
I am not really sure the waterside will ever be really active either. It reminds me of the area in Portland on the river by McCormicks and Schmicks. When I was there last Spring it was really nice out but was kind of a dead zone.
One of the reasons Portland is celebrated is because of their huge waterfront. The waterfront park exists because they tore down a freeway.
I think the folks at Walk the Waterfront are right.
The city should redouble its efforts to have a continuous wide esplanade from Ruston to the MOG. Its sort of being worked on right now but it needs to be ramped up.
Each section needs to be looked at and acquired and/or rebuilt. This would go a longs ways to flushing out the value of Tacoma that is largely sitting dormant right now.
I’ll put in a third vote for the michael g. and Heather suggestion of somehow re-thinking Schuster Parkway from downtown to Old Town. Schuster is absolute crap for non-motorized transportation. Unless you like to have cars whizzing past you, just inches away and at ridiculous speeds…
21 | Posted by jamie from thriceallamerican | Apr 16, 11:41 AM
Thanks for the link Erik! Their web-page brought my attention to this: Tacoma Planning Commission Public Hearing on 2008 Critical Areas Preservation Ordinance – Wednesday April 16, 2008 5PM, City Council Chambers.
22 | Posted by Heather | Apr 16, 02:36 PM
Since when did the Foss waterway become a “waterfront”? For the past 100 years it’s been a dead-headed, polluted scrap of waste. Now that the EPA (read taxpayers) have spent a gorilla’s ass-full of money cleaning it up, everyone with dollar signs in their greedy little eyes wants a “waterfront” condo.
FYI, the railroad tracks were laid in the 1880’s and are the very reason that Tacoma exist today. I-705 was built to get the people off the freeway and to the North End without having to mingle in with the bridge traffic on Bantz Blvd. (there’s a street name you won’t see on a map newer than 20 years!)It was meant for drivers to AVOID Downtown. Both the tracks and the freeway are here until the nuclear winter or the coming of Christ, whichever is first.
It’s hard for people relatively new to this area to appreciate it for what it is instead of wanting to change it into what you dream of. City planners have screwed this region up and you are only going to make it worse by building a bunch of condo’s in a city that has historically been neighborhoods of clapboard homes. That change is not going to happen anytime soon. The neighborhoods are here to stay and, try as you may, Downtown will NEVER be considered a “Neighborhood”
The youngest of my children will enter college in 3 years. When that happens, I’m leaving this “nice little town” for someplace quiet with a small lawn and a garden. SW Oregon looks OK for now. I’ll leave Tacoma to you apartment dwellers to battle over where you are going to park. You will find that, by then someone will have gotten rich by building a grogery central to your sky dwellings and will gladly sell you a 1/2 gallon of 2% milk for $4.95 and a head of lettuce (organic, of course)for $3.00. As for me, I think it’s all pretty silly. And I believe that I deserve better.
Sorry that this equates to a rant, but it’s been building for a while.
23 | Posted by J. Cote | Apr 16, 11:26 PM
Change is good……..especially in Tacoma……far too long has Tacoma kept this small time, no change attitude…and the last boom, we we’re left in the dust because of our old way of thinking and refusing to change. Tacoma is too close to the central part of the sound not to change and grow…..it’s the way it is….you can grow and maintain the culture of the area……
24 | Posted by rich | Apr 17, 05:24 AM
“I’ll leave Tacoma to you apartment dwellers to battle over where you are going to park.”
Actually, I can find parking in downtown just about any time of the day, every day of the year, no problem.
“I’m leaving this “nice little town” for someplace quiet with a small lawn and a garden. SW Oregon looks OK for now.”
Enjoy your retirement J. Cote.
25 | Posted by CA | Apr 17, 10:33 AM
Consider San Francisco and how tearing down the Embarcadero Freeway has really made that area attractive to both tourists and locals.
www.preservenet.com/freeways/FreewaysEmbarcadero.html
26 | Posted by beerBoy | Apr 17, 11:32 AM
Since when did the Foss waterway become a “waterfront”? For the past 100 years it’s been a dead-headed, polluted scrap of waste.
Yes and Ruston has been polluted as well. Alot of cities in the county have reclaimed and cleaned up their waterfront. Having a wide esplanade on the waterfront with mixed use building nearby is a common and success approach to make it usable and vibrant.
We have a good example by the MOG. Now we just need to connect up the parts ASAP.
When that happens, I’m leaving this “nice little town” for someplace quiet with a small lawn and a garden.
We wish you luck. However, many are finding that the promises of the suburban life don’t deliver and that it is isolating and unsustainable.
J Cote does have one very good point: the entire reason for a loop road’s existence is to bypass heavily congested local roads (for instance, Pac Ave or Hwy 16.) How much would the residents of the 21st St corridor appreciate their relatively quiet neighborhood being turned into a major arterial?
Also, I believe it should be noted, 705 is just about the only smartly-designed and well-maintained piece of freeway in the entire Pacific NW; there is hardly ever congestion unless I-5 causes it, the merges are smooth, there are well-identified exits, etc. On my southward return commute every day (that I travel) I breathe a sigh of relief that I get to exit onto that lovely outlet rather than having to fight my way through the interchanges and west on 16.
One more thought on the subject: I’m a relatively new Tacoman, I’ve only lived here for three years, but all of the attention paid to the Foss Waterway seems a bit ridiculous to me. There are plenty of ACTUAL EXISTING neighborhoods in Tacoma where people really live now that could use a little of this attention and TLC, rather than attempting to create a “neighborhood” out of whole cloth where one doesn’t exist merely because the property values could be higher there since it is proximate to water. Developers shouldn’t drive the discussion, citizens should!
28 | Posted by Jim C | Apr 17, 12:25 PM
Thank you for the well wishes, all. Jim C #28 restated my point. Where is all this money going to come from, but to take it from the already existing neighborhoods. Those of us that have invested 15-20 years of our lives and tax dollars are now just supposed to build your neighborhood for you out of what has always been an industrial site? It does not make sense. Get the developers and the real estate agents out of the conversation. We know where their hearts are, their wallets.
Want to live in a downtown apt.? Good for you! Move to Seattle or Portland and God bless you. This is Tacoma. It is what it is, quit truing to make it into Seattle.
29 | Posted by J. Cote | Apr 17, 12:47 PM
“Want to live in a downtown apt.? Good for you! Move to Seattle or Portland and God bless you. This is Tacoma. It is what it is, quit truing to make it into Seattle.”
What a horrible outlook on life. “You are what you are, dont try to make it better.”
J. Cote, you love the suburbs and I love the city. So be it. I grew up in the suburbs and had a great childhood, and have no contempt for suburbanites. But I now live in the city and wouldn’t want to live anywhere else. Thankfully we live in a great country where you’re allowed to live wherever you choose to, as long as you can afford it. My comments, and those of others on here, represent Tacoman’s wishes to make our city BETTER! You’ve made it clear that you see no value in doing so. That’s your decision, and so be it.
30 | Posted by CA | Apr 17, 01:20 PM
I’m me, not Cote. I {heart} urbanity; I currently live on the north edge of downtown, near Wright Park, and couldn’t be happier. I’ll always support walkability and density, if you want to hear a two-hour lecture over beers someday on humanity’s failure of imagination when it comes to personal transport, let me know and I’ll meet you at the Parkway.
But: I agree with J Cote on his basic point regarding the Foss Waterway site and its relation to Schuster Parkway. Perhaps, and this is just a “devil’s advocate” talking, the Foss Waterway isn’t really an ideal location for mixed-use because of its geographic and topographic properties , despite its “waterfront” status. The railroad right-of-way was put there >100 years ago because of the geography of the area; proposals to terrace the cliffs, besides being ridiculously expensive, speak to this idea as well. It’s an admission, in effect, that we would have to fight Mother Nature’s design in order to introduce any type of pedestrian “flow” to the area…
33 | Posted by Jim C | Apr 17, 02:33 PM
J Cote:
You realize Seattle and Portland do not have the market cornered on downtown apartments, right?
I have no desire to move to Seattle (too self-obsessed) nor Portland (in Oregon).
I like Tacoma. Have ever since I came up here for college. But I don’t want to deal with a yard or being surrounded by blocks and blocks and blocks of houses.
Just cause I want to live downtown doesn’t mean I want to turn Tacoma into something it’s not. There were (more) people living down there long before this site was created.
#29 – We know where their hearts are, their wallets.
What business doesn’t have its heart in its wallet? Except for non-profits, isn’t the point of working to make money? The same could be said for many people.
Does this mean when you sale your house and yard in a few years, your asking price will only be what you paid and maybe some additional for those improvements you worked on? No reason to make a little extra profit…
Sounds to me you’re unhappy with Tacoma because it has grown and changed. Good luck to you in Oregon, but they seem to be having this “problem” also. Many small towns in this country are clamoring for growth, not just Tacoma.
35 | Posted by I'm for Change (for tacoma) | Apr 18, 06:46 AM
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